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 Post subject: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 12th, 2012, 4:55 pm 
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Just wanted to get an official clarification on this topic.

Using Mob spawners either ones pre-loaded into the new map or ones that you brought over from the old map are not to be used for XP or Item farms.

Clarification on XP farm:
- Mob spawner spawns the mobs and some sort of grinder knocks them down to low level health causing them to only need one hit to kill.

Clarification on Item farm:
- Mob spawner spawns the mob and some sort of grinder kills them but their drop remains allowing you to pick them up.

The above is what I'm assuming to be true as for what is no longer allowed. However, what I would like to know is the following about how spawners can be used. Using either pre-loaded mob spawners or ones that you brought over from the old map in the following sense.

First Scenario:
- Mob spawner spawns the mob, mob is trapped in some sense of the word that it can not hurt you but you can hurt it, no grinder is involved, you must kill the mob at its full health but the mob is unable to hurt you in this scenario.

- EDIT: One example I can think for this would be like this, Mobs spawn in a pit, your at the top of the pit out of there reach and kill them using bow and arrow. Another example would be you attacking at the "feet" of the mob while the mob's "head" is behind bars or glass or something Again this could be the mob spawns in a pit one and your "head" is at the "feet" of the mob and you attack their feet.

Second Scenario:
- Mob spawner spawns the mob, you must kill it at its full health while it is attacking you which would pretty much be just be the same situation as night time when mobs spawn in dark areas and you kill them while they try to kill you. The only difference with a spawner in this case is that it can placed anywhere and you can control when it spawns and doesn't using whatever method you need to.

So underlying question(s) based on the above two scenarios:
Which one is allowed?
Are both allowed?
or
Forget you I'm deleting any spawners that people are using to gain xp or items in any way shape or form.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 12th, 2012, 11:19 pm 
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I would really rather neither. Staff have raised countless issues with me about people just sitting at the ass end of a grinder or getting stupid amounts of what is essentially free xp.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 1:36 am 
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Hmm, I can see your point, however, I think we could have at least one case where we could use them in a responsible and fair manner. In the second scenario the idea I have in mind would be the same as you standing out in the open at night where mobs can attack you and hurt you the only difference is your using a spawner to generate a specific mob that you want to fight, either for items or for the amount of xp they give.

The scenario would be something like this(blaze spawner example):

Show
Image


You would be inside the enclosed room with the monster spawner(in the picture i left the top open to get a good image but in the idea it would be closed). You wouldn't be able to just sit their with nothing to worry about, you would have to keep fighting. In this way it could be pretty fun. If you pot up with some fire resist and go at these blazes it could end up being a fun activity to get yourself some xp.

Could turn some of the blaze spawners I've already run into in the nether into these combat chambers and people could go do a "blaze run" as it were. With this idea it would require the person to be active use items such as food, weapons and armor. Based on this example possibly turn other per-loaded spawners into these combat chambers or create our own combat chambers with the spawners we brought over but in the same manner as descrived above.

To this end we would still be able to use spawners but in a more "fair" way that doesn't cheapen the gameplay experience, because we would have to be actively involved in fighting for our lives, therefore we would be using food, potions, armor, and weapons.

EDIT:
The only other thing is that the time it takes to get the xp you need for an enchant could be decreased some but not as dramatically as it was with the xp farms people had on the old map. It would be quicker because the rate at which you face enemy mobs would be increased but this could also be a downside for the same reason as you could be killed quicker as well. This would pretty much be the same thing as running around at night from one mob grouping to the next. But I don't really see this as to big of a problem when it comes to game-play.

I hope I explained the idea a little better here. And thanks for the response.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 5:01 am 
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ok so as i see it now we have to work for our experience but all the people with creative can stand in 1 spot and drop 100s of bottles of experience ?

mob spawners/grinders are the only way to make this fair for everyone



CANCEL THIS OUT SINCE IT DONT MAKE SENSE TO ME EITHER


Last edited by tomsplz3 on May 13th, 2012, 10:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 5:44 am 
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tomsplz3 wrote:
ok so as i see it now we have to work for our experience but all the people with creative can stand in 1 spot and drop 100s of bottles of experience ?

mob spawners/grinders are the only way to make this fair for everyone


creative gives unlimited xp anyway so that would be pointless :P

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 7:08 am 
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tomsplz3 wrote:
ok so as i see it now we have to work for our experience but all the people with creative can stand in 1 spot and drop 100s of bottles of experience ?

mob spawners/grinders are the only way to make this fair for everyone


People with creative also have unlimited diamond blocks, dyou want them to hand out free diamond blocks for everyone because of this?

Inb4 retarded yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 9:14 am 
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tomsplz3 wrote:
ok so as i see it now we have to work for our experience but all the people with creative can stand in 1 spot and drop 100s of bottles of experience ?

mob spawners/grinders are the only way to make this fair for everyone


All the people with creative are trustees, and they are trustees because they don't do exactly this.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 11:27 am 
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tomsplz what the fuck was that? You made NO relevant point and in that completely retarded point, degraded our staff. I have not once seen your ridiculous excuse for an argument's scenario occur. Anyone who access to creative mode at will have access to the /xp command anyway, and we trust them to not use it for any of that.

Stainless, if you believe that whatever scenario you have concocted lies within my consideration for this guideline, then go ahead. I have said that people are to work for experience and not sit in grinders. Comply with that and there is no problem.

This means that spawners will never be craftable again, by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 1:18 pm 
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Ollieboy wrote:
Stainless, if you believe that whatever scenario you have concocted lies within my consideration for this guideline, then go ahead. I have said that people are to work for experience and not sit in grinders. Comply with that and there is no problem.


Ollie, my attempt here is not to try and concoct anything, just try to come up with some way that we can use the spawners already at our disposal in a responsible and fair way that meets with your approval. I was just aiming for some kind of approval around this whole "combat chamber" idea as it would be a fun and quicker way then having to wait for mobs to spawn at night to go and get xp plus you would still be working for the xp in these "combat chambers," its not something you can just sit in and expect not to have to work for. You would be actively fighting for your life using up resources such as food, pots, weapons and armor therefore you are trading off these resources for xp, keeping it fair to the game experience.

I'll gear up and try out some scenarios to see what happens and how much xp is earned over time doing the whole "combat chamber" idea vs running around at night killing mob packs and report my findings. Probably will for like an hour on trying both to get fairly decent results.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 2:13 pm 
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Seriously. Just grab the shotgun and go huntin' when it comes night time. - Don't find a way to get around the rules, just use your common sense and use the spawners already in the game for what they are supposed to be used for.
Otherwise, if people abuse this, chances are ALL spawners will removed completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 2:30 pm 
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I seriously don't give a shit. Not saying anything bad about your efforts or anything Stainless, There are far better things to do than fart around with spawners. I said people are to earn experience. To understand where I am coming from; THIS is where the whole spawner thing came from.

Our CPU on our server was not able to handle everyone having a super coloured sheep farm, or 500 pigs in one pen like most people were, so to combat this, rather than say "Fuck you all, we are banning all animals and you're all ugly", Hafnium and I developed a workaround that we thought would fairly compensate for us removing the whole farm feature. Haf developed the plugin to change spawner types, and we found a custon recipe plugin for people to build spawners.

In the recent month, the trustees have expressed concerns that this is no longer effective, as people are abusing this, putting 8 spawners together, building a whole bunch of zombie pigmen and killing them in one hit. COMPLETELY devaluing xp among other things. We are not a hardcore survival server, but we aren't ANY type of server if everyone mass produces the same shit. That is a way to get boring fast. After weighing up the trustees' opinions (who are responsible for actual gameplay decisions, I just press buttons) I decided to stop our previous workaround. We've all made our spawner traps and shit, let's move onto finding another thing to do.

So, here is what is going to happen. Instead of farting around with "acceptable variations" of spawner usage, I'm going to make it nice and clear because I don't want to have to deal with it after this forum post.

NO MORE SPAWNERS

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 4:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 4:15 pm 
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Pemalite wrote:
Seriously. Just grab the shotgun and go huntin' when it comes night time. - Don't find a way to get around the rules, just use your common sense and use the spawners already in the game for what they are supposed to be used for.
Otherwise, if people abuse this, chances are ALL spawners will removed completely.


Pem, i'm not trying to find a way around any rules. I was contesting a rule that had not been made clear, trying to come up with something that would benefit us players and keep the higher ups happy. As for the spawners that's exactly what I'm trying to get at here.

Look, fuck spawners that people brought over. And fuck the whole thing about being able to make and place spawners ourselves, i don't give a shit one way or another about this, and i'm sure other people won't either. This is not what I was trying to get at in this post. Granted I did mention spawners that people brought over from the old map, now I say trash those/delete them because they would probably be misused by some people somehow.

Ollieboy wrote:
I seriously don't give a shit. Not saying anything bad about your efforts or anything Stainless, There are far better things to do than fart around with spawners.


I wouldn't care one way or another since i'm not some 12 year old hormonal teenager that would flip shit over some little thing. My efforts here have just been to clear up the rules regarding spawners now and what might be acceptable because there is confusion among the players about what is and what is not acceptable.

Ollieboy wrote:
Show
Our CPU on our server was not able to handle everyone having a super coloured sheep farm, or 500 pigs in one pen like most people were, so to combat this, rather than say "Fuck you all, we are banning all animals and you're all ugly", Hafnium and I developed a workaround that we thought would fairly compensate for us removing the whole farm feature. Haf developed the plugin to change spawner types, and we found a custon recipe plugin for people to build spawners.

In the recent month, the trustees have expressed concerns that this is no longer effective, as people are abusing this, putting 8 spawners together, building a whole bunch of zombie pigmen and killing them in one hit. COMPLETELY devaluing xp among other things. We are not a hardcore survival server, but we aren't ANY type of server if everyone mass produces the same shit. That is a way to get boring fast. After weighing up the trustees' opinions (who are responsible for actual gameplay decisions, I just press buttons) I decided to stop our previous workaround. We've all made our spawner traps and shit, let's move onto finding another thing to do.


Yes I completely agree with what was done here because I would enter an are and start lagging instantly with peoples huge farms of animals so i understand why that got shutdown quick. I also understand why you would want to kill spawners from being placed and used in the way they were. People were getting like 50 levels in 5-15 minutes it was stupid, it de-valued what is supposed to be worked for. This is why i'm saying fuck placing spawners we can place ourselves; they would probably find a way to get misused again if it was allowed.

This is why I was going to get some numbers and results from actually using a spawner in a responsible way, a pre-loaded blaze spawner in a nether fortress and give some results on time spent, levels gained, equipment damage, and food used to see if it is acceptable.

Like pem was saying up above I'm trying to find where the lines are on proper use of spawners. It's come abundantly clear that spawners placed by players is out completely. But pre-loaded ones can be used responsibly in my mind as my results show. Which is the whole idea i was attempting to get at with the combat chambers as shown below.

Show
This is what i started with before entering the blaze "combat chamber" as i'm naming it(its just a room with a blaze spawner in it with four walls a ceiling and a floor):
Image

This is the "chamber" itself:
Image

These are the results of me using it for an hour:
Image

I was killing them while they were at full health It was not one hit kills.

Total cost: 1/2 a diamond sword, probably 1/4 at most on armor, 20 bread, 7 fire resist 8:00 min potions.
Total reward: 143 blaze rods, 40 levels. 40 levels got me an Unbreaking 3 diamond pick.

Based on these results it seems pretty legit to use spawners in this way. This method is one that a player had brought up in game and was told was not acceptable this is what really prompted my decision to come and try and clear the spawner situation up.


Ollieboy wrote:
So, here is what is going to happen. Instead of farting around with "acceptable variations" of spawner usage, I'm going to make it nice and clear because I don't want to have to deal with it after this forum post.

NO MORE SPAWNERS


If that's your final decision so be it.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 5:03 pm 
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If you find a spawner on the map, feel free to kill the monsters that spawn from it. That's all.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 13th, 2012, 5:16 pm 
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Sanjar Khan wrote:
If you find a spawner on the map, feel free to kill the monsters that spawn from it. That's all.


Thank you for making that clear now Sanjar as it was not clear to some people and was a real potion of what I was trying to get at here. As I would like to take some of the blaze spawners I've come across in the nether and make a nice/nicer room for the spawner so others and myself can go back when we want and fight for some xp in the way I did/mentioned above. This was not clear to some of the players as whether or not doing this was acceptable so thank you for that.

I'd say this pretty much finishes off the limits of what is and is not acceptable for spawners now.

First: All spawners you may have brought over from the old map you should throw in lava otherwise if you place them you'll probably get face full of lightning.
Second: Natural spawners found throughout the map can be used to to get xp from, you may not convert these natural spawners into xp or item farms, i.e. make them into one hit kill spawns.
Third: Have fun!

That's pretty much what I'm taking out of this series posts on what is and is not acceptable under the terms of spawners.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 14th, 2012, 8:45 am 

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so we are not allowed to use spawners or are whe to make a new mob farm. ?
its just not realy clear to me since i want to make a xp farm not like the previous onces but like we need 4 hits with a stone sword.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 14th, 2012, 8:55 am 
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firex, the whole point of this thread was to not make xp farms. You are allowed to stand around natural spawners and kill them, but it is not to be converted into a big grinder that pre-weakens the mobs.

Or did you just completely ignore Stainless' post?

StainlessBlood wrote:
First: All spawners you may have brought over from the old map you should throw in lava otherwise if you place them you'll probably get face full of lightning.
Second: Natural spawners found throughout the map can be used to to get xp from, you may not convert these natural spawners into xp or item farms, i.e. make them into one hit kill spawns.
Third: Have fun!

That's pretty much what I'm taking out of this series posts on what is and is not acceptable under the terms of spawners.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 14th, 2012, 10:06 am 
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ok another question.

how about using water in the natural spawner (blaze spawner) to keep yourself from catching on fire. is that allowed or what? or would that be considered a mob grinder


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 14th, 2012, 10:48 am 
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Just because you brought it up it's not allowed.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: May 14th, 2012, 11:47 am 
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Water in the nether :)

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: June 7th, 2012, 10:32 pm 
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Just a new thing I want to bring up on the same topic, as I don't really want to get smote for breaking any rules.

First one is blaze spawners in the nether. An op raised a point about these when I was talking about blaze spawners that I feel could use clearing up one way or the other. If you use a natural blaze spawner in accordance with the above guidelines would using fire resistance potions not be allowed while using the blaze spawner. The controversy is that Blazes are a fire projectile mob and is its main damage method, however blazes can do close up melee damage. When fighting multiple blazes at once the melee damage can stack up quickly even while wearing diamond armor which I found out first hand. So is it within the guidelines and acceptable to use fire resist potions while fighting blazes is what it boils down to.

The second one sounded kind of odd to me when I heard it. "You can't use a bow against mobs in a dark room." I find this kind of like saying "You can't use a bow against mobs at night out in the open world which is a big dark room at night." Or like saying "You skeletons can't use bows either then." When I heard it I just thought to myself "So can I not use a bow to pick off mobs from a tower then". I don't know why using a bow in a dark room is a problem but if it is just set it straight in here.

Thanks for taking the time to review these questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: June 7th, 2012, 10:44 pm 
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Of course you can use potions. If you build a darkroom and a spot for yourself to sit in picking mobs of from an unhittable position you are being a douche and you should stop it.

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 Post subject: Re: Mobs and Spawners
PostPosted: June 7th, 2012, 10:53 pm 
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Sanjar Khan wrote:
Of course you can use potions. If you build a darkroom and a spot for yourself to sit in picking mobs of from an unhittable position you are being a douche and you should stop it.


Lol well thanks for the quick response Sanjar. Also The whole darkroom thing was something I heard about but I don't think that's what they were doing but I could be wrong heh. I figured as long as the mobs in a darkroom have a chance at hitting you it would be fine which is why I was wondering why it would be flat out against the rules. Thanks for the clear up.


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