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What would you do?
Nothing 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Wipe, start again 5%  5%  [ 3 ]
Wipe, copy Initus and minimal others 27%  27%  [ 15 ]
Wipe, copy ALL the things and transfer ALL the hidden config 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Slowly phase to a new map (w/ multiworld) 61%  61%  [ 34 ]
Make a new main world, leave current as secondary 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Other (Specify below) 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 56
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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 9:11 am 
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There is no "just copy it over".

The problem is this: The map looks ugly. There are unnatural and unblended chunks everywhere due to seed changes in updated. By pasting everyone's stuff in, we aren't solving it, we are just filling a NEW map with unblended, pasted in chunks.

So, the way that I see it is to encourage people to resource transfer. Similar to chest shops, just unlimited. We won't be going to a fresh start, just a fresh map. There will be a portal at spawn or something that will go to the new map, people can go to their new joint there, and then transfer their stuff.

The best point that I have seen in this thread is from Sanjar.

Sanjar Khan wrote:
Building is practically what this game is about, what is wrong with building something new.


Yes, resources and time have been sunk in, and yes I am shitting on this ideal by transferring Initus, but that is a special case, and there may very well be other special cases that I will transfer, but ultimately if a build has too much of an imposition on effort to paste in/blend/whatever, then it is less likely to happen.

At this stage, maybe plan for a pure resource transfer. And I mean, there is still the possibility that this map will remain, but fresh maps are now an inevitability with the way that Minecraft is.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 10:45 am 

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Initus being great and all, yet it is a built like everyone elses too.
Copying things out of the blue, will definitely result into unhappyness with some people.
Also it is not a just thing to do. In my oppinion.

Therefore I have a proposal, or an idea:
The blended option seems nice to me. It will give players time to adjust and will safe work for the admins.
Its a great thing to have and it will alow much to do.

The only missing thing, which is being discussed here is the thing about the structures:
Will cities be ported?
Will structures be ported?
Which will be ported? Which will not?

I have an "easy" sollution for this:

Everyone who wants a structure/town ported will have to meet a certain requireies:

- Hand in the old coordinates of the area (with the stuff to port)
- Hand in new coordinates of where to port in the new world.
- There will be a maximum amount of 3 ports per player


So this sollution will not happen. Ollie is against pasting the landscape with much builds, as the map will look like shit again. And i definitely agree.

Therefore the copy paste will be limited by number as well as paying a high amount of au.
Yet this will still not solve the problem as builts will need to fit in the environment.

I say: give each and everyone the chance to choose their new coordinates. Then let them blend in the built themselves!

If the build does not blend in after the transition is done, the build will be deleted again and pasted with a copy of what has been there before. The au will be lost ofc either way.

This will releave the admins a LOT of work. Players will think twice before they will port.
The big, important and useful work will not get lost. Everyone is happy.

The only thing is that this will require some transfer by the mods.
The amount will probably be very bearable though. I do not think that it will be more than 20 or 30 places.
The work will be minimum as it is only copy/paste and the players will have the duty to fit the builds in themselves.
Noone could say that this would be unfair, since everyone gets the chance of porting their dearest stuff. Older players, having more au as well as resources will be able to port more, while newer players like me will have to add resources with other players to port the stuff that is important for us.
The map will not look like a bad patchwork after it.




I think its a decent idea and i am willing to discuss it further.
Here the short points/ tl;dr:

Players will have to
-pay much au for porting
-search for a suitable new spot
-blend the structures into the new map
-transfer everything else themselves


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 11:56 am 
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And yet another detail relating to the structure transferal that's worth to be discussed. I'd like to pick up this little conversation:
Quote:
<@Ollieboy> I want copy and pasting to be minimal[...]
HooosMiner: the problem with that will be: how do you decide what to copy and what not <@Ollieboy> An application thing for transfer on the forums. Based on ease of transfer and niceness of build. Decided by trustees.
<@Ollieboy> However it will be brutal.


The problem with this solution is that you'll piss off people if the staffs judgement significantly differs from their own which is likely as you've stated that your judgement will be brutal.
You could reduce this problem by introducing a transferal fee that increases with uglyness.
- judge the build
- if it's transferal-worthy: copy/paste it for free or a low fee.
- if it's not transferal-worthy: offer to copy/paste it for a significantly higher fee.
Such a method would especially help you to deal with the transition-region (where it's hard to decide whether builds are transferal worthy or not) in a fair way.
You can allow the owner of the dirt-hut to make the final decision about the future of his build - which is easier to accept than a simple "no" from above.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 12:00 pm 
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We'll see. My goal is to not piss people off, but this is obviously impossible. I'm trying to be as nice as possible but we've gotta draw the line somewhere. I don't want to copy over non-worthy builds anyway, but like I said, we'll see. We have plenty more to worry about than the new map which might not even happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 2:16 pm 
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Yes, they will get angry. However, they will soon move on and begin to build anew. Its a harsh way to look at it, but unfortunately it's true. As mentioned, they won't be starting completely over. We will have the ability to take items over which is a huge convenience.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 2:20 pm 
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KingCrab wrote:
Yes, they will get angry. However, they will soon move on and begin to build anew. Its a harsh way to look at it, but unfortunately it's true. As mentioned, they won't be starting completely over. We will have the ability to take items over which is a huge convenience.

Oh you sound so sure that Armaita will be moved :3
But yeah there will be so much butthurt.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 4:13 pm 
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PyroPyro wrote:
Oh you sound so sure that Armaita will be moved :3


Ollieboy wrote:
Ease of transfer


Armaita will not be easy to transfer. It will not only be work for the trustees and Ollie, but work for me as well. A spot will have to be found. It will have to be terraformed to get rid of square chunks during the paste. Not to mention the chunks it'll have to be divided into for preferable pasting size.

Also, armaita was mainly empty and had maybe 4 members. The city took a large amount of space as well.

I was already lucky to have it moved once. I would be happy to have it moved, but at the same time I honestly wouldn't be that upset if it wasn't moved this time.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 12:16 pm 

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Quote:
However, they will soon move on and begin to build anew.


because there is no other choice.
do not underestemate the power of bad mood and similar.

You have a little server and do not advertise it because you want it to be nice and friendly. keep it that way and dont do top down changes. That is the worst thing you could do - well apart from seemingly doing bottom up and then decide top down anyways.


Did anyone even care to critique/read my post?


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 12:45 pm 
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Hooo! wrote:
Quote:
However, they will soon move on and begin to build anew.


because there is no other choice.
do not underestemate the power of bad mood and similar.

You have a little server and do not advertise it because you want it to be nice and friendly. keep it that way and dont do top down changes. That is the worst thing you could do - well apart from seemingly doing bottom up and then decide top down anyways.


Did anyone even care to critique/read my post?


This certainly won't be the first time we've done this. We know what kind of reaction we'll get. Popular opinion and administrative needs don't always match up, and no matter WHAT decision is made, some people will be unhappy.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 2:53 pm 
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:( Unhappy..

Shitloads of extra work, just becouse somebody had to fucking update the seeds
*looks agry at mojang*

This makes even the administrative side unhappy.....

Btw...

We need to cut/paste stuff to the 'new map' if we go for that...
Becouse otherwise we dupe stuff.
The builds i dont care, but the stuff in the chests i dont like to dupe.
So we will end-up with a shitlooking 'oldmain' after a while.
As its temp, i dont care.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 2:58 pm 
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We always had problems like that and they will continue as long as they keep adding stuff. I think there's no other way... Unless someone codes a world-regeneration plugin or tool that would keep the shape of the world but distribute random resources and biomes etc.

I remember the first time this struck us up the ass was when Lapis Lazuli was added...

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 4:09 pm 

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Quote:
This certainly won't be the first time we've done this. We know what kind of reaction we'll get. Popular opinion and administrative needs don't always match up, and no matter WHAT decision is made, some people will be unhappy.


No matter what it will make people unhappy.
I agree with that.
I hope that everyone will do as much as they can to let that unhappyness be at a minimum.

I think that my idea on how exactly to apply for transfers could help with that issue very much. Yet i have not seen 1 post to support it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:32 am 
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Hooo! wrote:
I think that my idea on how exactly to apply for transfers could help with that issue very much. Yet i have not seen 1 post to support it.


Your idea supported by multiple people, i gues. But not everybody is going to post ''wow your a genius", this isn't facebook. + Like!

Pay for transfer, i like. To the trustee who does the trouble for you :).
But that will unballance the market, so proberly we need destroy the money :(.

Now, for the spots. Ofc they need to look for the new spot!
I'm not going to do that for them, about the coords, i dont care.
The person must be online for the copie anyhow.
And they need to blend it, so if they have a desert city, you can NOT put it in the swamp or jungle. And they need to make it look like it was allwase there.

IF we are going to copy stuff at all. I dont wanna give every visitor the 'right to copy'.
If they have a freaking dirthouse, they can copy it themselfs by moving it block by block.

Once the time is there, there will be a post about it, what the 'rules' will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 10:05 am 
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I think we should just do a completely fresh start. Don't transfer over anything at all. No resources, no builds, no economy, nothing. I've done plenty of work on my build which some of you will know so I'm not just saying that because I haven't put effort into it, I just think it's the most neat way of doing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 10:42 am 
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Desosus wrote:
I think we should just do a completely fresh start. Don't transfer over anything at all. No resources, no builds, no economy, nothing. I've done plenty of work on my build which some of you will know so I'm not just saying that because I haven't put effort into it, I just think it's the most neat way of doing it.

She is right, but we still need quests and a nice spawn :3 so just move lud, initus and that slapfffpfft.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 11:32 am 
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PyroPyro wrote:
She is right, but we still need quests and a nice spawn :3 so just move lud, initus and that slapfffpfft.


Feel free to keep the server related stuff like Initus and Salvezza etc. Just make everyone start from scratch on their personal builds.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 12:00 pm 
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I'm having 2nd toughts on copy'ng stuff non-server related as well.

Having the 2 worlds (mains) at one server, will make copy'ng stuff easy'r.
Maybe we should have the new main as a 'hidden' world, only for supop+ to access to help with the build of the new spawn (copy/landscape stuff/zone'ng).
ps: houses in Intius, with chests? empty those then?

Then once the new world is ready for players, make the old main hidden.
(for copy'ng stuff that can wait a bit longer).


Playing the game, getting started from 0, surviving the first few nights..
Making a new base..
Darn, that almost sounds like fun!

ps: changed my vote.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 12:19 pm 
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Wipe, copy Initus and minimal others

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 5:15 pm 
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Intertoothh wrote:
Playing the game, getting started from 0, surviving the first few nights..
Making a new base..
Darn, that almost sounds like fun!

I strongly disagree with this. While it might be interesting to start over again the first or 2nd time, the excitement about those restarts drops quite rapidly, as it's just about grinding resources after all.
There is no need to violate the philosophy of having a permanent world even more by erasing the fruits of the players labour - especially as it doesn't cause any kind of workload for the servers moderators due to multiworld. Just let the old and the new world run parallel for a couple of weeks allowing the players to transfer the items they care about.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 5:59 pm 

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Also as i discussed with pyropyro a minimal transfer of just "some stuff" will lead to people getting mad.

Pyropyros answer was: "just be mad then".
Well i guess that is a valid standpoint you can have, however if that is true this thread should not exist. if the mods didnt care about how people would want the transfer to happen, then they would just do a bombing strategy: Thats it - and nothing else.

This is a nice server with nice people on it. If this should continue as it is, then being nice and caring for each other is what it is about.

Just copy that what pyro or whoever finds important is neither fair, nor caring nor nice. ofcourse this is a possibility, but one that should be out of the question for how this servers attitude really is.

On copying dirt houses: noone is going to pay a big amount of au for a dirt house. That would be plain stupid. It is only the big builds everyone will get a chance to transfer. The stupid things will possibly stay.




As i understood it the reason for starting a new world is that the old world looks like shit due to three main reasons:
1) chunks and biomes that dont belong together will just cut in a straight line
2) so many little houses everywhere on the map, that noone inherits
3) ghosttowns and villages

with the option i provided all those three things will be gone
and yet everyone has the chance to save whatever they need.


And if someone wants to roll over: Yes please do so. Dont transfer anything, give your au away and roll over in the new world. Its a possibility you can have, if that is what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 6:52 pm 
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Hooo! wrote:
*wall of text*

I did not say that.
Show
Logs (if anyone cares):
Code:
[18:06] <+SVB> HooosMiner: the door is fochlacs idea but i built another one that will replace the old one in the
[18:06] <+SVB> HooosMiner: new world
[18:06] <+SVB> PyroPyro: ah
[18:06] <+SVB> HooosMiner: mine is a little bit more efficient/ not as laggy
[18:06] <+SVB> PyroPyro: dunno if there will be staff movin
[18:06] <+SVB> HooosMiner: but his idea is simply nice
[18:07] <+SVB> HooosMiner: yeah well we will probably rebuild the tower anyways
[18:07] <+SVB> HooosMiner: because the cobblestone looks ugly
[18:07] <+SVB> PyroPyro: i say we start from 0
[18:07] <+SVB> HooosMiner: well yeah id miss some stuff. also we will not
[18:08] <+SVB> HooosMiner: since ollie will be porting the spawn
[18:08] <+SVB> PyroPyro: just the spawn
[18:08] <+SVB> HooosMiner: and if hes porting one thing
[18:08] <+SVB> HooosMiner: we cant just stop there in my oppinion
[18:08] <+SVB> PyroPyro: we need a fresh start
[18:08] <+SVB> HooosMiner: also a lot of great builds will be lost
[18:08] <+SVB> HooosMiner: like lud
[18:09] <+SVB> PyroPyro: like i said transfer initus and lud
[18:09] <+SVB> PyroPyro: also some quest builds
[18:09] <+SVB> PyroPyro: and nothing else.
[18:09] <+SVB> HooosMiner: then u have the problem that you cannot stop.
[18:09] <+SVB> HooosMiner: people will get angry at that definitely
[18:09] <+SVB> HooosMiner: and im not an exception to that
[18:09] <+SVB> HooosMiner: the reason to minecraft is for me building stuff i like
[18:09] <+SVB> PyroPyro: if they get angry... well sucks to be them
[18:09] <+SVB> PyroPyro: afk
[18:09] <+SVB> [PyroPyro disconnected]
[18:10] <+SVB> HooosMiner: im not happy with having it destroyed afterwards

On another that is my opinion, I have a right to have it. I do not make the decisions like this , i just say what i think... that's how communities like this one work.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 7:17 pm 
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Wundsalz wrote:
Intertoothh wrote:
Playing the game, getting started from 0, surviving the first few nights..
Making a new base..
Darn, that almost sounds like fun!

I strongly disagree with this. While it might be interesting to start over again the first or 2nd time, the excitement about those restarts drops quite rapidly, as it's just about grinding resources after all.

I haven't followed SMP and previously Beta server developments for very long, but I don't think there have been many fresh clean starts, if any.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:24 pm 
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Dont worry. I wont be completely wiping anything. I just mean to say that if someone has a small cobble tower I wont take it, but if someone has a big castle I probabky will. People are discussing it but ultimately I will make the final call, and I MAY consider this thread. As stated in the first post I just want a feel for what others would do.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: March 28th, 2012, 6:03 am 

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PyroPyro wrote:
Hooo! wrote:
*wall of text*

On another that is my opinion, I have a right to have it. I do not make the decisions like this , i just say what i think... that's how communities like this one work.

Ofcourse. that is why im answering to it with my own oppinion.
with the advantages and disadvantages i see in that.
But i think i got my point across fairly well.
Also i didnt hear reason against the "do the blending themselves" idea yet.
So im still quite certain that ollie will find a good way to solve this issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: April 2nd, 2012, 2:26 am 
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Also i didnt hear reason against the "do the blending themselves" idea yet.


Its silly to think that people will do the blending themselves. Wishful thinking at it's best.


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: April 2nd, 2012, 6:41 am 
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Sanjar Khan wrote:
Wundsalz wrote:
Intertoothh wrote:
Playing the game, getting started from 0, surviving the first few nights..
Making a new base..
Darn, that almost sounds like fun!

I strongly disagree with this. While it might be interesting to start over again the first or 2nd time, the excitement about those restarts drops quite rapidly, as it's just about grinding resources after all.

I haven't followed SMP and previously Beta server developments for very long, but I don't think there have been many fresh clean starts, if any.

That statement is based on my personal experience rather than on following the fcraft-SMP-server developments. I've started twice on this server already. Once when initially joining it and another time when I came back here in febuary and Ollie refused/wasn't able to give me my transferal chest :rage: . In addition to those starts this isn't the first server I've played on - I've chopped quite a couple of trees with my bare hands since the beta-release.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: April 4th, 2012, 6:18 am 

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Darklight wrote:
Quote:
Also i didnt hear reason against the "do the blending themselves" idea yet.


Its silly to think that people will do the blending themselves. Wishful thinking at it's best.


exactly.
People will pay a lot of au in the sollution i provided. So probably most of them actually WILL do the blending.
Some wont. That is true.

This is why transfered builds will need coordinates.
With a simple backup and the coordinates at hand
ollie or whoever can simply recover the world in those spaces, without having much to do.
Its just a matter of seconds, if the exact coordinates are written down.

Seeing the work that blending will cost people like ollie, I dont think they should bother with it themselves. They got enough to do anways.
Pasting over the few not transfered spots will therefore be a matter of like 5 minutes or less.
It is a bearable thing, considering that the very most people will take the transfer seriously.
Additionally it would provide a fair cenario, which will only be considered by a few number of people. (basically the projects that ollie would have ported anyways - is my guess)


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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: April 4th, 2012, 9:27 am 
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Joined: May 23rd, 2011, 3:13 am
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Location: Australia
Calm down. I'm not like what all the other ranked people are saying. The idea is to be more generous with this one. The economy isn't being wiped, so there is no reason to limit transfers other than at the expense of effort.

So that's why I would MUCH rather people cut their losses and thought "Well building this was fun, but now to pack up all my resources and start again", but if people are really bitchy and require that their builds are transferred, we would make a trade-off, similar to payment but I don't know yet.

The new map has also already been generated. I will begin transferring Initus soon and getting the spawn set up, and then the other things. Then people will be allowed entrance to find new spots. It is also on the Dynmap to assist with the finding part. This will go down maybe in 3 or 4 weeks probably, with a roughly 2-week phase period maybe. But I promise nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: April 5th, 2012, 12:26 pm 
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Joined: May 24th, 2011, 5:51 am
Posts: 1148
Lets make clear, that we are just sugesting ideas and opinions.
Ollieboy WILL have the final say in this.

And if we are going to copy we need some clear 'rules' about it.

Sugested rules:
- You need to mark the corners (3d) your buildings with blocks.
- You need to find a new location by your self.
(write down coords, staff can tp there with your build then).
- Once we agree on the new location, will we CUT and PASTE the build into the new location.
- Landscaping is YOUR job, if you FAIL to do this, we will warn you, still not fixing it, we will regen the area and your building/chests will be lost.
- Chest protection will proberly be broken, you will need to fix this.
- Pailstone stuff wil be broken. You need to redo every signs by hand (at this point).

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 Post subject: Re: Stop messing with seeds!
PostPosted: April 5th, 2012, 12:37 pm 
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Joined: May 24th, 2011, 1:40 pm
Posts: 1766
Location: Leiden, Zuid Holland
I much rather prefer you blend your buildings with the terrain, not the terrain with your buildings.

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