Tekkit map wipe

[rwojy]

So anyway, I believe that tekkit needs a wipe, but this is a community thing, so the community gets a vote. I believe that there are many items that need to be disabled that have not been, or have but still remain on the map, and are more or less impossible to find, and in many cases, removing the block doesn't remove the effects it already caused. Also, it leaves new players at a disadvantage.

I guess I don't really expect to see much agreement but throwing it out there anyway.

[Hit-Girl]

Holy-crap no. Never. Nooooo way.

[Sanjar Khan]

Which/how many items?

[Darklight]

Depends on the reasoning behind the wipe proposal.
If there was more information, we may be more inclined to agree with you.

[Jjb14]

If there was more information, we may be more inclined to agree with you.

This is true, but I would still probably vote no.

[Hit-Girl]

There are Two reasons that I can make out.

1) There are no volcanoes.
(Easily fixed, just build one and paste it around)
2) The block-cutter upgrade which causes terrain damage, and lag.
(Again, not really a problem, I doubt more than 3-4 people have used it.)

[Arkaunis]

If it can be assured that the next map is a %100 permanent map, then go for it. This time might I recommend disabling EE completely (condensers).

[Hit-Girl]

I recommend disabling EE completely (condensers).

If this were to happen, then I'd probably reconsider.

[Arkaunis]

Considering the fact that several groups bum rushed them, I don't think they'll be too hurt from starting over.

Since I saw that people had several advanced machines and MV solar arrays VERY shortly after the opening of the map, I don't see why they should be that upset over having to start from scratch.

The major disadvantage that was expressed was that you have people like Khan and Hit who made large terrain adjustments to design a home (giant ass hole).

[Hit-Girl]

The major disadvantage that was expressed was that you have people like Khan and Hit who made large terrain adjustments to design a home (giant ass hole).

Eh, I don't want it to come across as selfish as that, others have done just as much work as us, I'm sure, and would be annoyed at starting over as well.
The fact they rushed their stuff, means they ruined the game play aspect for themselves, no one else, thus in a sense they've already been punished. Wiping the map would be rewarding them, as they'll actually get to play the game.
I don't see a reason why condensers can't be disabled without needing a map wipe? Seems extremely bizarre.

[TheBeardmaster]

*Votes Yes*

[Ollieboy]

The main driver is the fact that people have things that rwojy and I did not intend on being in the game, whether it was the fault of current blacklisting methods allowing them in (such as the anchors and whatnot) or we just didn't know.

Know this: If server resource usage becomes a problem I will be wiping the map no questions asked, however the problem here is rwojy wants to keep the game slightly more fair, because we will be disabling what we can but new player will miss out on stuff that we might miss that has all ready been built, for example. Tekkit isn't as highly customisable as it seems so we had to get a tekkit-specific block disabler plugin instead of relying on old methods, so consider based on that. However I fully accept that 90% of the 6 people who still play won't keep playing when they have to start again. However I think this is definitely something that we would like to do before advertising the server.

[Intertoothh]

However I think this is definitely something that we would like to do before advertising the server.

100% agree.

I havent build any 'wooping' stuff yet, but i'm about to start with nice stuff.
So if we need a while 'soon', do it asap instead of waiting for people to make bigger stuff.

(Witholding from voting)

[Hit-Girl]

So if we need a while 'soon', do it asap instead of waiting for people to make bigger stuff.

[Zafum]

So if we need a while 'soon', do it asap instead of waiting for people to make bigger stuff.

^ That, and I think the Energy Condensers should go. They rid some of the enjoyment out of multiplayer. What's the fun in mining and crafting, if you can just convert all your materials to and from emc? It gets boring after a while, and removes the point in trading items with others. Anyway, just my opinion ^_^

[Arkaunis]

Eh, I don't want it to come across as selfish as that, others have done just as much work as us, I'm sure, and would be annoyed at starting over as well.

I didn't mean it to appear that personalized. Just using you two as good examples. There are, of course, many others who are in the same boat.

trading items with others

This is actually a really valid point that I hadn't thought. We want to encourage people to trade and work together, yet allow items that can make masses of things.

Also, there is a slight push on the release of our services services to a broader audience and drawing more people in. A new, fresh map would help newcomers feel like they are one the same playing field as the veterans to the community.

[Hit-Girl]

I think the Energy Condensers should go.

Also, I don't actually see a plausible reason for wiping other than this; new players will always have a disadvantage to the older players, on any and all servers.
Not only that, but I've yet to see what these so called blocks that are causing the disadvantage actually are.

[Xesdra]

Since I saw that people had several advanced machines and MV solar arrays VERY shortly after the opening of the map, I don't see why they should be that upset over having to start from scratch.

On the first tekkit server Ollie, Hit and I ever tested, we started with only diamond tools and mobs disabled i think. I'm certain that we managed to complete tekkit up to quantum in less than a week with full quantum and nuclear power, with no EE (I don't think we knew HV solars existed). Tekkit doesn't take that long to complete if you try, and having a group of people makes that time even shorter.

[Arkaunis]

A lack of diamond tools and much more difficult mobs are now a factor though.

Obviously even with a wipe and all the proposed disabled items, a group can essentially no life it and get full setups, but I don't understand why'd they want to diminish their willingness to play Tekkit by doing so.

Note: This should probably be decided by the end of the week. If the wipe is going to happen, it would be ideal to do it when there will be minimalistic damage to people's time and effort.

[Ollieboy]

It's not about "completing tekkit", that's just an expression. SMP has never been completed, it's a sandbox game therefore it is completed when people are done with it.

Either way okay I suppose it will be wiped. I can do this within the next few hours but since we are running multiworld I will just throw that map over to another world and if people desperately want shit I, rwojy and maybe other can assist in transferring. No I am not going to make a transfer policy, but if you want to bring over 20 diamond blocks, no.

[StainlessBlood]

Just a few thoughts(Okay this turned out to be quite lengthy after looking at it when I finished) on it myself, all opinions of course.

Main benefits of a map wipe:
- I only see it as being beneficial in the case that it would eliminate the items you plan on disabling in a quick easy way.

Main downside of a map wipe:
- People losing what they've already striven to build, not just machines, or machine setups but buildings/complex homes, large landscape transformations in preparations for a build.

Extra thoughts on a map wipe:
- If I start playing this week there is a good chance of having a benefit over someone who starts out next week.

- Because of the current difficulty of mobs it encourages teaming up which will effectively create greater advantages of groups of players over those just starting out.

- This could result in a new player just teaming up with someone who is already established and give them the same advantages thereby eliminating some of the work of building up to it.

- Summarizing: there will always be an imbalance in terms of advantages unless new players team up with someone already established

Main upsides of disabling condensers:
- Reducing speed of getting to what people constantly refer to as the end point of playing tekkit, which would be full quantum armor, a nuclear reactor setup/lots of HV solar panels.

- This would effectively allow/force people to work harder for what they want to achieve.

- This could also be a driving factor to team up with people because you are going to need extra help to accomplish the aforementioned goals/"endpoint".

Main downsides of disabling condensers:
- (300 crystal chests of cobble. Yes an exaggeration, but a good way to state an obvious point that people think of.) Its true if you don't want that much pump it into a lava pit plain in simple so its not really that big of a downside which is why I put it in parentheses.

- One thing that i would see as a main downside would probably be things like sand/glass. Glass is used in quite a few things like pipes and lamps for instance (50 recipes when I looked in game that involve the use of glass not including disabled items). This would require you to find a desert, then dig the shit out of it. If there are limited amounts of desert (I havent come across many, maybe 1 or so) you could easily cause sand/glass depletion requiring someone to regenerate the deserts or start a new map. Granted it'd be more likely to regenerate a desert or two here or there when necessary than wipe the map but i think u see the point, it would require constant replenishing in that case especially if more generate a larger player base.

- With condensers we all pretty much avoid the issue of "oh crap all the deserts have been excavated, and now the terrain looks like shit" by just digging up a few blocks of sand, make a couple glass, condense more when you need it, instead of digging up the deserts constantly causing a depletion.

- The same could be true for other resources to, (like glowstone or netherbrick which would more likely call for a complete nether regeneration like we've seen in SMP before which never was a problem). I only mention it because it might promote the condensing of them over constant harvesting which might lead someone to make a cool build in the nether, something I haven't yet have a privilege to see. Unfortunately glowstone EMC is relatively moderate so its more likely people will just harvest over condensing which would eventually deplete the resource from the nether leading to a nether regeneration. But I digress.

Extra thoughts on disabling condensers:
- The main way i see the abuse of these is mostly from people setting up systems that effectively generate EMC without any trade offs, like a cobblestone generator employing block breakers(Something I imagine should have been disabled). Another would probably be setting up large farms for plants, wheat or sugarcane for instance, that would harvest things and pump them directly into condensers which I can't really see any ways around other then disabling condensers or saying don't do that.

- Summarizing: Condensers do have the drawback that they can speed up the progress at which one achieves the "endpoint" which i mentioned previously being quantum armor, nuclear power, tons of HV solar panels. They have the benefit of turning useless items, way to much cobble, into potential items to be used. Such as cobble to glass eliminating the need to rip apart deserts. It could also lead to longer map life in the same regards that it transfers the useless to the useful. After so much time specific things become more and more scarce but there are many things in much greater abundance that condensers allow us to turn to use. Some ways of limiting the abuse of these condensers do exist but it would be difficult to eliminate it all together, it would essentially need to be monitored by anyone that played the game with strict rules regarding the abuse of them.

Additional points/Wrap-up:
- Based on the above, anyone that has already rushed quantum, nuclear power, large quantities of HV solar panels clearly didn't want to play tekkit in a way that required more effort than was necessary to reach the "endpoint". If they wanted to actually play the game with any sense of wanting to feel like they worked for the "enpoint" then they would have.

- With that said you don't need to wipe the map to force them to do so just tell them to start over or get them to get rid of everything and play it without using or abusing the condenser. If they really want to play tekkit they will do it, otherwise they never really cared to do so.

- Finally, this so called "endpoint" is total nonsense. It isn't over when you have quantum, nuclear reactor, and/or HV solar panels, if people think so they miss the point of tekkit. You open such a wide variety of possibilities with tekkit you have so much you can do. With all the power you get from HV solar panels and nuclear reactors you open the possibility of more complex setups, you could attempt automating all sorts of different things and more. More than likely people haven't explored everything tekkit has to offer, such as the individual mods BuildCraft, IndustrialCraft, RailCraft, etc. If people stop just because they have reached this so called "endpoint" they don't really want to play tekkit and explore its possibilities so if anyone thinks that a map should be wiped because of people reaching this "endpoint" they should reevaluate their viewpoint.

Again all my opinions so don't chew me out because you don't agree with something I said. This is probably the most I've ever put my input into, and might have gone overboard xD

Also seeing as I was writing this before Ollie made a reply all my input now seems rather null and void so kudos if you actually read my crap.

[Ollieboy]

I did read all that and disagree with all of it.

Nah but srsly Condensors have to go unfortunately. It is exactly the case of the few ruining it for the many. It was a controversial decision to allow them but it's just so goddamn overpowered.

I fully agree with you on "completing tekkit" and that's not the issue.

About the map wipe itself I see what you mean but it's just a matter of long-term balance and whatnot if we are talking about a fair server here, and there are things that need to go for NON balance reasons (the killing of block cutter stuff) and the like. You know I hate map wiping but the fundamentals of Minecraft unfortunately make this an inevitability, and each time I have striven to make the map transfer process as fair as possible, however rwojy and I need to nip this in the arse before we start advertising the server, instead of letting it go and becoming an indefinite problem.

That said we are using a better blacklist plugin this time around so hopefully things are a bit more stable, and in future we can hopefully manage block issues a little better. The sad truth is that this was a prematurely permanent server. I was too eager to get it out and thus we ran into issues far too early, but after this I need to do minimal work on it and ..y'know...focus on my career so I can guarantee this will be the last major change for at least 3 months

[Zafum]

One question, can we get a list of currently (or soon to be) blacklisted items?

[Ollieboy]

When rwojy gets back from bed.

However, it is certain that condensers are gone, and also that stupid Forcefield block cutting thing. We don't want to block EVERYTHING, just do our best to balance things, and taking Equivalent Exchange out from the server does that pretty well

[StainlessBlood]

Yea I can understand and agree with pretty much what you're saying. It wasn't really the condensers I cared about just wanted to mention what kind of pluses they did have like mainly eliminating the need to tear up the visible terrain like deserts because you could condense more sand/glass when u needed. I know that some people will undoubtedly abuse/over use them. The main thing I hated was having to wipe the map so soon, for those that already put effort into establishing something nice, but I think most people will ultimately get past it.

[Ollieboy]

It's a bit of a shame but a sad reality. It's better now with smart understanding people than after we advertise to the general public

[Element_Equinox]

Honestly, the sooner we get it over with, the better. It sucks, but we didn't spend THAT long on this map (compared to time spent on SMP maps in the past). I say do whatever needs doing now, so we have more time to shoot Hit with a musket cooperate later.

[Hit-Girl]

shoot Hit with a musket

[StainlessBlood]

...taking Equivalent Exchange out from the server does that pretty well

Oh god, another long winded piece of input.

Just wanted to give my input on EE, based on the categories from the wiki this is where I stand on the EE items and how I think some of it does fall within what we're considering as fair gameplay. I color coded everything with a summary at the bottom so people can just refer to what I viewed as fair to the game and not and look back at how I came to that summary given relevant information in the body. I figured a thought out response/input from someone who played on the previous tekkit map and the more recent one often, might prove useful.

Red Matter Tools: Already disabled as far as I know

Dark Matter Tools: I know at least some are enabled which I do like but may be considered to "op" so in the event they would be disabled its not that big of a deal in my opinion.

EE Armor: Already disabled as far as I know

EE Materials: The items listed herein by themselves do not pose any real problems in my opinion
-- Alchemical coal: 4 used in conjuction with a philosopher's stone to make Mobius Fuel
-- Mobius Fuel: 4 used in conjuction with a philosopher's stone to make Aeternalis Fuel
-- Aeternalis Fuel: 8 used in conjuction with a diamond block to make Dark Matter
-- Dark Matter: used to make Dark Matter Blocks or Red Matter
-- Red Matter: used to make Red Matter Blocks
-- Dark Matter Blocks and Red Matter Blocks: blocks for decoration
-- Covalence Dust: the three different covalence dusts can be used to repair items and the repair cost is quite fair. They are also used in a few other EE recipes for items discussed below.

EE Factory Blocks
-- Energy Collectors: Already disabled
-- Energy Condenser: Soon to be disabled
-- Antimatter Relays: No use based on other disabled items, so disabling would be fine
-- Alchemical Chest: By itself not a problem can just act as a large storage chest, but if a talisman of repair is placed inside it repairs tools. I like this ability but ultimately your choice on whether or not its to "op" as we could repair items using just covalence dusts as I mentioned previously.
-- Interdiction Torch: used to repel mobs in a 5 block radius, 15 block radius if placed in an Alchemical Chest
-- Dark Matter Furnace: 50% chance of doubling its output for each smelted item excluding dusts which is always a 1:1 ratio in the Dark Matter Furnace. The only thing with it is that it smelts quite fast but i don't see this as a problem because if someone worked up to getting such a furnace I think it is quite fair to let them use it as the furnace requires a fuel source as a trade off.
-- Red Matter Furnace: 100% chance of doubling its output for each smelted item excluding dusts which is always a 1:1 ratio in the Red Matter Furnace. Again the speed at which it smelts is quite fast even more so then the Dark Matter Furnace because if someone worked up to getting such a furnace I think it is quite fair to let them use it as the furnace requires a fuel source as a trade off.

EE Power Items:
-- Swiftwolf's Rending Gale, Ring of Arcana, Void Ring, Zero Ring, Ring of Ignition, Harvest Goddess Band, Archangel's Smite, Black Hole Band, Iron Band, Gem of Eternal Destiny, Soul Stone, Catalytic Lens, Volcanite Amulet, Evertide Amulet, Body Stone, Hyperkinetic Lens, Life Stone, Mind Stone, Mercurial Eye, Destruction Catalyst, Alchemical Tome, Pedestal, Watch of Flowing Time; all of which I imagine are disabled or would/should be
-- Transmutation tablet: Not as quick of a way to transmute upward to better items as a condenser but still effectively the same thing as a condenser, u can pump in tons of cobble(by hand) and add that EMC up until you can get a diamond in return for instance, probably should be disabled.
-- Divining Rod: Very useful in finding ores, by scanning a specific area based on which divining rod you have and gives you back the a result of what the highest, second highest, and third highest EMC value it found in that area.
-- Talisman of Repair: when placed in an Alchemical Chest or Alchemy Bag it will repair the tools and weapons, and anything with a durability that isn't an electric tool or anything else like it. Because there is no cost to this kind of repair it may be "op" but I do like it so its a fence sitter for me.
-- Alchemy Bag: A mobile Alchemical Chest that can not be raided from if killed. All bags of the same color for a player are the same from one white alchemy bag to the next white alchemy bag for instance. With 16 of these at 104 slots each that's 1664 slots. At maximum they can hold 106496 total items. I think just 1 bag, 2 at max would be most useful and fair.
-- Philospoher's stone: The recipes it's used in are some of the most valid Equivalent Exchanges based on EMC, like 1 gold for 8 iron, 8 iron for 1 gold, 1 diamond for 4 gold, and 4 gold for 1 diamond. It also has uses as described in the materials section, therefore it is probably one of the most legitimate trade up/down items in the mod.


For a summary on what I got at in the above for disabled/should be disabled and fair/allowable items in my opinion would be as follows:


Disabled/Should be disabled items:
- Red Matter Tools, EE Armor, Energy Collectors, Energy Condenser, Antimatter Relays, Swiftwolf's Rending Gale, Ring of Arcana, Void Ring, Zero Ring, Ring of Ignition, Harvest Goddess Band, Archangel's Smite, Black Hole Band, Iron Band, Gem of Eternal Destiny, Soul Stone, Catalytic Lens, Volcanite Amulet, Evertide Amulet, Body Stone, Hyperkinetic Lens, Life Stone, Mind Stone, Mercurial Eye, Destruction Catalyst, Alchemical Tome, Pedestal, Watch of Flowing Time, Transmutation tablet.

Fair/Allowable items:
- Alchemical coal, Mobius Fuel, Aeternalis Fuel, Dark Matter, Red Matter, Dark Matter Blocks, Red Matter Blocks, Covalence Dust, Alchemical Chest(By itself is just a large chest but also useful in conjunction with an interdiction torch), Interdiction Torch, Dark Matter Furnace, Red Matter Furnace, Divining Rod, Philospoher's stone.

Fence Sitters and Conditionals:
- Dark Matter Tools and Talisman of Repair
- Alchemy Bag under the condition that only 1 or 2 max were allowed.e condition that only 1 or 2 max were allowed.
- Divining rod has proven to be quite like x-ray and should probably go

Again like last time, just my opinions based on time playing the tekkit maps here at fCraft and through single player fiddling. Also I don't know how the disabling of certain things go, if it can be a specific item recipe or a package of items/recipes, so some of these could be up in the air.

[Element_Equinox]

shoot Hit with a musket