Communist Symbol Debate

[xN8Gx]

Okay to explain this, me and a few other vets had a debate earlier as to whether or not to treat a communist symbol the same was as the nazi symbol. We had a few show up today and I don't think we've had to have this debate before now (and if we have had to, none of us were there/can remember it). So I'm putting it up for speculation; is a communist symbol an instaban like the swastika, or should we just disregard it?

PS: The only reason this is a debate is because some people are offended by communism. Otherwise, I wouldn't care enough to post this topic at all.

[TraeWallace]

I don't feel it should be insta-ban, but it should be deleted and frowned upon.

Nazism and Communism are two forms of government that oppress and kill people - Sure, there are countries ran by Communism, but they are forced too. Neo-Nazism is still a political party, their symbol is still the Swastika.. Communism has their symbol.

Communism has started EVERY war the United States has been in, and both World Wars. This has killed millions of more people than Nazism ever did.

If you read the Articles of the United States of America's war guidelines, it states one of the sole purposes of war is to stop the spread of communism.

The Russian Communistic government was just as cruel to people as the Nazi regime.

If swastikas aren't aloud, Communistic signs shouldn't be either.

[xN8Gx]

Personally, I think a big part of the reason the swastika is not tolerated is because its used for racist purposes. If the communist symbol was used the same way, then we wouldn't be having this debate, it would be an insta-ban, no questions asked. And even though communism has caused a lot of international issues, I don't think the symbol for it should be really regarded too badly. Maybe just deleted, but not anything worthy of a ban.

[TraeWallace]

Personally, I think a big part of the reason the swastika is not tolerated is because its used for racist purposes. If the communist symbol was used the same way, then we wouldn't be having this debate, it would be an insta-ban, no questions asked. And even though communism has caused a lot of international issues, I don't think the symbol for it should be really regarded too badly. Maybe just deleted, but not anything worthy of a ban.

Exactly.

[stkal]

I know I'm sort of butting in here a bit, but something to consider:

The communist symbol can be roughly equated to a picture of a U.S. dollar. It is the basis of the economy of a society, but communism, like capitalism, is little more than a symbol of a socio-economic structure. The Swastika was specifically the symbol of a group of racist murderers.

Think of it this way - Swastika is to "KKK" as communism is to capitalism. The first pair refers to a group of people who will do anything to achieve their dreams (including, notoriously, genocide) where the latter pair refer to bad people. Communists and capitalists may be good or bad, Nazis and Klansmen are, almost down to the last, always bad.


Sorry for rambling on a bit, but I just wanted to point out that for some people communism is as much a glorious hope for the future as capitalism, and I can't honestly say that there's a reason to ban it on an international server. Hope that makes sense.

[Sanjar Khan]

Communism does not incorporate biological racism as Nazism does, therefore I will not delete communist markings/symbols.

American capitalism is responsible for it's fair share of innocent lives as well.

having lost relatives/friends to wars against communism.

You have no idea how wrong this sounds, you might want to rephrase that.

[FreeBro]

I don't think that communist markings are offensif.
They are a symbol of a way of thinking so if you delete them it says you only allow your way of thinking.

so if i see them i won't delete them until told otherwise by a op +

[Sanjar Khan]

That is not why we allow/disallow things freewill.

[barrowboyjames]

I don't think that communist markings are offensif.
They are a symbol of a way of thinking so if you delete them it says you only allow your way of thinking.

so if i see them i won't delete them until told otherwise by a op +

But people will surely use that excuse for building a swastika, it works both ways.

[FreeBro]

I don't think that communist markings are offensif.
They are a symbol of a way of thinking so if you delete them it says you only allow your way of thinking.

so if i see them i won't delete them until told otherwise by a op +

But people will surely use that excuse for building a swastika, it works both ways.

yeah but a swastika is globaly known as bad a communist marking isn't

[fragmer]

Yeah communism has been demonized in the west, and yeah communism has caused grievances to many people, I am against banning the hammer and sickle. We can't ban every controversial or offensive symbol -- we'd quickly run into censorship issues.

Remember that the main motivation behind banning swastikas/penises/curse words is to catch griefers, not to impose our morality on players.

(Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post are my opinion, not any kind of official policy).

[Lim-Dul]

To make it an official policy then and coming from a guy that was born in a communist country (back then): no, we don't ban for these signs.

Yes, many people lost their lives to communist regimes BUT the point here is that the underlying principle of communism is a potentially good one (everyone being equal, people rewarded for the amount of work they do etc. etc.) - it is just not feasible in real life and every single implementation of it in the world was perverted and abused by people who didn't follow their own rules and inept governments - it would only work in a Utopian society.

Nazism on the other hand has racial discrimination and hate built into its very foundations.

The end results are similar - a lot of deaths (in the case of communist countries mostly their own citizens) but ideologically these two systems couldn't be more different and communist does not promote hate in any shape or form - actually quite the opposite. In communism deaths are caused by the government enforcing "perfect rules" in an "imperfect world".

What I WOULD ban for or at least warn people for is using names like Stalin - people are much more tolerant towards him, probably because he was on the winning side of WWII and was "only" killing people living in the Soviet Block but anybody to whom probably around 30.000.000 deaths can be attributed shouldn't be used just for fun... Same goes for many other communist leaders.

[barrowboyjames]

If you think about it though, communism has a FEW advantages... democracy is falling as we know it, so maybe, and I really don't like to say this... but our or others last resort. Fascism and communism are worlds apart, communism is just stricter and more one-sided. Fascism is just control.

[Sanjar Khan]

democracy is falling as we know it

[barrowboyjames]

democracy is falling as we know it

Think about it, since many elections have happened, the USA has gone to AA+, England have dropped 5%. The stability is dreadful...

[Sanjar Khan]

Are you even old enough to vote?

[barrowboyjames]

350th smartest kid in Britain, and I pay attention to the news.

[Sanjar Khan]

What does following the news tell you about democracy that has been around for hundreds of years? Unless you've been following the news since the 18th century.

[lucky_pierre]

Can we ban peace signs while we're at it?
That shit's annoying.

[barrowboyjames]

What does following the news tell you about democracy that has been around for hundreds of years? Unless you've been following the news since the 18th century.

History fanatic

[Lim-Dul]

What does following the news tell you about democracy that has been around for hundreds of years? Unless you've been following the news since the 18th century.

I think you mean the democracy that has been around for THOUSANDS of years (Ancient Greece anybody?) - contrary to popular belief Americans didn't invent it. ;-)
The Polish constitution was drafted just 3.5 years after the American one. :-P

Fun fact: America doesn't even lead on the democracy index and is outdone for instance by their Northern neighbors they make fun of every so often:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
Say hello to rank 17! :-P
It's funny that Norway is rank 1 considering it's a monarchy (well, only formally speaking, but yeah). ^^

Anyways - all systems you can come up with will eventually fail due to the human factor - there will always be human error, greed, lust for power etc., no matter what system we would choose.

Tyranny or dictatorship do work in some instances when the ruler is wise and has the best interest of his people in mind but such cases are rare and it's impossible to uphold such a system beyond one "cadence" since you can't be 100% sure that somebody's successor will be as apt as the person he is replacing.

[barrowboyjames]

So what we're saying is we're against all political signs on fCraft, but only the swastika is banworthy?

[Lim-Dul]

Yes. But if I say something like this some dumbass will quote me on it and make it a hard rule.

Use common sense...

We are not against using signs in context - yet again I must give the example of somebody building a WWII submarine bay and putting swastikas on the sides - they would be somewhat OK unless he STARTED with the swastikas. ;-)

What I am against are ideologically charged builds - in fact I wasn't fond of the 9/11 build initiatives at all.

You have to keep in mind what the purpose of a build is - if someone is building a symbol just for the sake of trolling or imposing something on others, it's not OK, if he/she builds it because it complements their build, which is made for other reasons, then it's OK.

[Sanjar Khan]

I meant constitutional democracy. What I was trying to convey was in light of all those years, a few recent events mean nothing. People always believe they are witnessing some sort of turning point in history, that the economic crisis they're in is the hardest ever, the war they're part of the most important.

[barrowboyjames]

I wasn't meaning to insult anyone, I was just asking. If I did insult you Lim, then I apologize, but in my opinion, political signs which insult or anger people should be banned, and that's my opinion.

[Lim-Dul]

Insult me? 0_o
Where did that come from? ^^
I was just stating what I think about political symbols.

Also, a lot of things anger people. I'm of the opinion that the "authorities" shouldn't force censorship down people's throats. In the case of the swastika it's different since it's not used for anything else but trolling - unless placed in sensible builds as written above.

We don't ban people for symbols, we are banning them for intentions. That's why we will also never have chat filters and such - one guy says "Hey nigger!" to his friend, the other says "You are all dumb niggers!" Same word, two completely different connotations.

[boblol0909]

If you want to get technical America is a republic, not a democracy.

[barrowboyjames]

Also, a lot of things anger people. I'm of the opinion that the "authorities" shouldn't force censorship down people's throats. In the case of the swastika it's different since it's not used for anything else but trolling - unless placed in sensible builds as written above.

But I keep on getting slated for that... so I CAN use swastikas for useful purposes. e.g. Tanks, planes, wars, battles?[

Edit: Message messed up

[Kittle]

You can.

[fragmer]

I'd like to reiterate my earlier point that I'd rather not add building rules for ideological/moral reasons, but only pragmatic ones (id est, combating griefers and trolls). That way we can skip pointless discussions (such as this thread )