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Desosus wrote:And sorry, but "he knows what he's doing" is a terrible copout. Why don't you go to Africa and see a child dying of thirst and hunger and say that to him?

If a god exists and it allows things like that to happen, I have no problem calling such a god an evil psychopath.

You can say what you want, I have better morals than your so called god. A 10 year old would have better morals than the god who calls for murder and genocide.

It's not a copout. I have no idea what God's plan is or what his true intentions are, so I've surrendered to Him, for I know that I'll never truly understand everything that He does.

God is in total control of everything, but it was not God who caused genocides and murder to happen, but it is man. He has given us complete free will - free will to deny him, free will to become a serial killer, free will to lead a Nazi regime and wipe out a race, free will to donate all of our lottery winnings to charity, and so on.

And you say, why does He allow these to happen, the good and the bad? I frankly don't know. But the best reason I can think of is that somehow, all the horrible events will help to further His kingdom and expose Christ to people. Think of a tapestry. On the back, there are thousands of threads that weave together but don't form anything. On the front is what God sees - the whole image, the beautiful image. The threads on the back are us, and we all intertwine together to form God's plan, but we can't see it's beauty. Quite honestly, it's unattractive, but God can see it and knows what it is.

cdferg wrote: God is in total control of everything, but it was not God who caused genocides and murder to happen, but it is man. He has given us complete free will - free will to deny him, free will to become a serial killer, free will to lead a Nazi regime and wipe out a race, free will to donate all of our lottery winnings to charity, and so on.

I see, so "here, you have free will. Now use it to do exactly as I tell you or I will punish you for eternity." Some free will there.

cdferg wrote:And you say, why does He allow these to happen, the good and the bad? I frankly don't know. But the best reason I can think of is that somehow, all the horrible events will help to further His kingdom and expose Christ to people. Think of a tapestry. On the back, there are thousands of threads that weave together but don't form anything. On the front is what God sees - the whole image, the beautiful image. The threads on the back are us, and we all intertwine together to form God's plan, but we can't see it's beauty. Quite honestly, it's unattractive, but God can see it and knows what it is.

You'd think an omnipotent being would be able to do that without causing needless suffering.

Can he prevent human suffering but chooses not to? Then he's evil.
Can he not prevent human suffering but he want's to? Then he's incompetent.

Whether it's part of a plan or not those are your only 2 choices. You can claim that it's all part of the plan (for which you have no backing evidence of any kind, only a blind faith in an entity that you do not even know for sure exists) but that doesn't absolve a god of the fact that what he's doing is evil.

There is no "Plan", there is no god, there is no fate, no meaning of life no point or purpose. We are just organic "mess" in the vacuum of space and mankind is just maggot food. There is no point of discussing the ending of our world, yeah it will happen... but why care. way waste time and words on that.

What would the world be like if there was no suffering? No crime? No sin? I'm not sure, but it doesn't exist. Our world is flawed and it came from the fall of man. It was God's initial plan for the world to be perfect but it was our selfishness and our disobedience that brought us to where we are.

It's a hard thing to accept why God allows for the suffering of the world to happen, but, like I said, it all comes down to our own sin. God didn't screw up, but we did, and we continue to screw up everyday. He doesn't have to allow us to live our lives like we do. We were all born imperfect and filled with evil.

I was once like you too - full of doubt, totally against any form of god that existed. I've been through hard, hard times in my life, and I sought out the world but only was let down. I was introduced to a loving and caring God, but also a just God who brought me into the light, if you will. I'm thankful for the people He placed in my life and the blessings I receive everyday. He saved me. Now, I can't say I don't doubt, but I know God exists, and I know this through people who have witnessed and the miracles I have experienced.

Perhaps it takes a powerful experience for one to believe in God.

Now, I'm going to stop posting on here, because this is truly draining me. If you ever want to talk to me about my experiences or my testimony, just PM me.

I bet were some aliens project that he decided to make willing to bet my life on that

cdferg wrote:What would the world be like if there was no suffering? No crime? No sin? I'm not sure, but it doesn't exist. Our world is flawed and it came from the fall of man. It was God's initial plan for the world to be perfect but it was our selfishness and our disobedience that brought us to where we are.

Yeah, cos we should all be held responsible for the sins of our ancestors. Maybe you should be imprisoned for life because a distant ancestor of yours committed murder. That would be just wouldn't it.

cdferg wrote:It's a hard thing to accept why God allows for the suffering of the world to happen, but, like I said, it all comes down to our own sin. God didn't screw up, but we did, and we continue to screw up everyday. He doesn't have to allow us to live our lives like we do. We were all born imperfect and filled with evil.

So humans are flawed. Maybe he should have made us better in the first place. Unless you think that it's logical for a creator (supernatural or human) to make something badly and then blame it for not working.

Born imperfect and filled with evil? You're just trolling me right? Innocent children who have just been born are filled with evil? Yeah, that totally makes sense.

cdferg wrote:I was once like you too - full of doubt, totally against any form of god that existed. I've been through hard, hard times in my life, and I sought out the world but only was let down. I was introduced to a loving and caring God, but also a just God who brought me into the light, if you will. I'm thankful for the people He placed in my life and the blessings I receive everyday. He saved me. Now, I can't say I don't doubt, but I know God exists, and I know this through people who have witnessed and the miracles I have experienced.

Yeah, I've been through hard times myself. But I didn't start believing in a god because of it. The concept of a god may have brought you some comfort but that has no bearing on whether a god actually exists or not.

I can say with some confidence that you have never witnessed a miracle nor has anyone else you've known.

cdferg wrote:Now, I'm going to stop posting on here, because this is truly draining me. If you ever want to talk to me about my experiences or my testimony, just PM me.

No thanks, arguments from personal experience are almost totally worthless when trying to prove something so it would serve no purpose.

I also notice you didn't address any of my statements in any meaningful way. But don't worry, that's ok. I'm not going to condemn you to hell for ignoring me.

A quote my sister recently said was "Take nails through your hands and feet and wear a crown made of thorns, and then you can tell me how to live my life."

Wow, that is quite possibly one of the stupidest things I have heard recently. Not even kidding. ;-)

What does being tortured have to do with telling others how to live their lives? This isn't even about belief, this is about making a logical connection between two things. ;-)

I saw some videos of guys hammering nails into their ballsack (don't ask) - can they tell me how to live my life now too?

He died on the cross so we may be cleansed of sin. I frankly don't care of this crap of "where's your proof?!?!" Also, you may think me an idiot to believe so, but I believe Jesus died on the cross to save us from sin. If you don't believe it, oh well. I pray that maybe one day you will. No matter what scientific analogies that you make out of the lack of proof, I don't believe Ferg or I will be changing our beliefs.

It's not even about proof. He may very well have died etc. etc. But to "save us from sin"? Absolving somebody from sin is an abstract concept - it can't be proven or denied and thus it is based solely on belief, belief that is not even shared by the majority of religious people in the world (Christianity is only one of the world's religions after all). ;-)

I just absolved you from sin in the Boom-cha, Boom-cha religion by blinking twice and hitting my toe at my desk at work. Now you won't have to go to the Boom-cha, Boom-cha hell where you'd be forced to listen to Justin Bieber for all eternity!
Try proving or disproving this! ^^

Very interesting discussion... I personally am an advocate of atheism but the arguments for and against it here have all be enlightening

cdferg wrote:Think of a tapestry. On the back, there are thousands of threads that weave together but don't form anything. On the front is what God sees - the whole image, the beautiful image. The threads on the back are us, and we all intertwine together to form God's plan, but we can't see it's beauty. Quite honestly, it's unattractive, but God can see it and knows what it is.

I am not religious and don't necessarily agree with this, but it reminded me of a quote from a book I read recently that was interesting to think about:

Choose any hour on the clock. It is possible, then, to conceive that the clock’s purpose is to return the hands back to that time, a time which, from the moment chosen, the hands leave and skate across the rest of the clock’s painted signs and calibrations and numbers. These other markings on the face become irrelevant in the themselves; they are now simply clues point in the direction of the chosen time. It is then possible, too, to conceive of the clock’s gears and springs as each having its own intrinsic function, but within a whole mechanism, the larger purpose of which is to return to the chosen time. In this manner, the clock resembles the universe. For is it not true that our universe is a mechanism consisting of celestial gears, spinning ball bearings, solar furnaces, all cooperating to turn man (and, indeed, what other, unimagined neighbors of whom we are ignorant!) to that chosen hour we know of from the Bible as Before the Fall? And as an ignorant insect crawling across the face of that clock, who see not the whole face, the full cycle of numbers, the short hand and the long (which pass in his sky with predictable orbits, cast familiar shadows, offer reassurance through their very repetitions, but which ultimately, puzzle and beg for the consideration of deeper mysteries), but who merely treads over the surface which hides the greater gear train and the spring without any but the most indirect conception of what lies beneath, so does man squirm and fret on the dusty skin of our earth, ignorant of the purpose of the world, indeed, the cosmos, beyond the fact that there is one, assigned by God and known only to Him, and that it is good and that it is terrifying and that it is ineffable and that only rational faith can soothe the desperate pains and woes of our magnificent and depraved world. It is that simple, dear reader, that logical, and that elegant.

Just thought I'd throw that out there

I also notice you didn't address any of my statements in any meaningful way. But don't worry, that's ok. I'm not going to condemn you to hell for ignoring me.

You are being unnessarily demeaning, considering you yourself chose to ignore my last post.

The main point in life is not whether or not people choose to believe in god.

The main point is how you live it. The only thing that really matters is what you do today. screw the past and future. The past can never be changed. The future can never be reached, so why worry about it? I learned that lesson a while ago, and ever since then I haven't had the need for any other reason to do what I want to in life.

Whether you want to bicker over whether religion is real or not isn't a concern to me. It's like fishes debating over whether fishing lines are 'ladders to heaven' or 'hooks to hell'.

^ Genius, and to actually get in the argument, i don't know if i believe in god, but i definitely don't believe in the bible (for most the reasons people have already posted) Cartoon, i dont know about not looking to the future, sometimes its a good thing to look and plan for the future. kind of like when the world started burning millions of gallons of gas without thinking of the repercussions of what they were doing.

oops, lame internet

Like I said, nothing will change my mind.

That's why it's called belief...



That is how bad I feel for you if you really think that.


Edit:

Also:

You volunteer to help people, not because of the reward.

I disagree, as to some extent it CAN also be to make yourself feel good. Do you not get a warm fuzzy feeling when you go out of your way to help someone esle? I know I do. I like it. I want more.

cdferg wrote:
Now, I'm going to stop posting on here, because this is truly draining me. If you ever want to talk to me about my experiences or my testimony, just PM me.

Did that about 10 posts ago.

Lim-Dul wrote:I saw some videos of guys hammering nails into their ballsack (don't ask)

Only thing I have to say is what the hell have you been looking up on the internet?

tylerthecreator5 wrote:I bet were some aliens project that he decided to make willing to bet my life on that

What..I don't even.....*sigh*

Trepvalkyrie wrote:

That is how bad I feel for you if you really think that.

Feel bad or not, I still have every human right to believe it. Now, if you accuse me I need to get into my A-10 Warthog and proceed to blow up every ship on this planet.

Alright nevermind.

Desosus wrote:I can say with some confidence that you have never witnessed a miracle nor has anyone else you've known.

You're gonna need more confidence. Last summer I spent a good deal of time in Mozambique. I saw more crazy things there than ever in my life. I don't know if you've ever done prayer healing (my guess is you haven't), but it's an extremely terrifying and miraculous thing. I've watched 5 men try to restrain a 7 year old girl, her body flailing and she, screaming like a banshee. I've seen exorcisms. I've seen demons - freaking demonic beings - come out of the mouths of people. I've seen lepers healed. I've seen blind men see again. I've seen the physically crippled walk again.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd consider all of those miracles. And do miracles have to be amazing revealings or healings? No, they don't. Don't you think it's a miracle that you woke up this morning? Or that you made it to work on time, even though you left 5 minutes late?

Desosus wrote:Born imperfect and filled with evil? You're just trolling me right? Innocent children who have just been born are filled with evil? Yeah, that totally makes sense.

Humans are born of sinful nature. It's not that a child is innocent, but that they are just born out of sinful nature. They haven't rejected God's salvation through Christ, so I do believe they are not condemned to hell.

Desosus wrote: I also notice you didn't address any of my statements in any meaningful way. But don't worry, that's ok. I'm not going to condemn you to hell for ignoring me.

Which statements? I'll address them with more meaning. Btw, I don't really like the tone of this discussion. Can we try to be less sarcastic, and try not to offend anyone. Remember, we're staff (most of us) and I think we should respect eachother, regardless. I'll try my best, even though sarcasm flows through my veins

I think this fits in here perfectly. If anyone feels offended, I don't give a shit.

kattoo wrote:I think this fits in here perfectly. If anyone feels offended, I don't give a shit.

Lol @ 1:00

Since we've descended to the level of personal anecdotes and beyond any sort of rational discussion into the matter, I'm going to just go ahead and step out of it. The last thing I will address is this.

I hold religion in contempt. Utter contempt. I will treat it as such. Whether that offends you or not isn't really my problem. I didn't take part in this discussion so we could have a good debate and then at the end say "but I respect your religion". I won't say that. Because I don't respect your religion. I respect your right to believe in it, but that doesn't mean I respect it. Again, if that offends you, that's not my problem. Offense is taken, not given. I could say your hairstyle offends me and it would amount to the same thing.

That is all.

I tried to be rational towards you, you chose ignore or patronize. Leading me to believe that your degree in something dna-y makes you think you are an expert on the historic and sociopolitical aspects of the matter. Contempt stems from a feeling of superiority, which is terribly arrogant of you. Your use of the word thus sounds more like pity. You dissapoint me.

kattoo wrote:I think this fits in here perfectly. If anyone feels offended, I don't give a shit.

LOL! That was GOLD kattoo. Hahaha. Made my night.

I happen to enjoy Mr.Karlins work. Don't necessarily agree with all them, but oh well, the guy's funny. I personally like his American corporations one.

Sorry, I was in class and the hunger and your blatant double standard flared my temper.
I tried time and time again to point out that your contempt for religion is irrational, but you chose to believeotherwise.

Whether that offends you or not isn't really my problem.

Someone is forgetting the things that tie a community together. Funfact: something religion does rather well.

Something Minecraft does well too!

...until Religion gets in the way.

Double post. Ban me.

Pretty sure this thread somewhere involved faster than light neutrinos. It's almost confirmed that they DO in fact exist. However, there is still a lot of error in it with the redone experiment but we shall see. Also, for the love of god, this DOES NOT mean we can go back in time, it means information could potentially be sent back in time. Physical objects are NOT information.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/ ... sfeed=true

And if people don't read until the end this is the final line, so don't think this is fact yet.

Science wrote:Even a tiny discrepancy between the clocks at Cern and Gran Sasso could be at the root of the faster-than-light results seen in September

noo, I made a seperate velociraptor thread about that

So i herd you like dying in 2012, so i prepared a speech for you.

That car is the Chrysler me412. It was a concept car built in 2004. It was planned to have 200 of those cars made each year. It didn't happen.


This is the bmw Vision Efficent Dynamic concept car. It again has plans to enter mass production in a few years. Will it happen? Nobody knows.

Enough about cars. Lets look at the origin of this idea of 2012 doomsday. It all started with a crazy lady named Nancy Lieder. She claimed to been abducted by aliens whenever. The aliens told her that a planet called Nibiru will fucking hit earth. This impact was predicted to hit in may 2003. DIDNT fucking happen.
Then it was predicted that it was just a minor delay and that the real impact is going to be in december 2012!!!!

Now the mayan calendar part. The mayans were famous for their calendars, They had one for tornados, stars and even (sadly) menstrual cycles... The mayan calendar we all know of as the one that will end in december 21 2012 is just a calendar called a long term calendar. They have many long term calendars. These types of calendars is just a response to somebody who got mad of making one every year, so they made calendars designed to last for many years. Once again, there are many long term calendars. After this calendar ends in december 2012, a new one will be replacing that one.

So we have the 2 required ingredients for our doomsday prediction. All we need is something to mix it together in. What about the internet! Yes the internet is capable of producing shit, so some kid somewhere came up with the idea that this mayan calendar and this crazy ladies story of a large planet hitting us is really the end times for earth.

Lets prove this all wrong. If a planet was to hit earth next year, we would be able to clearly see the planet by now, but we obviously don't. Again the mayan calendar is just a calendar and will be replaced with another long term calendar after december 2012.

Another theory is that all the planets in our solar system will align and we will some how die from that.
Nasa is able to predict anything with proven calculations. Why do you think we can predict when the moon will be a certain phase on a certain date. Nasa tells us that calculations show that the planets won't align at all in december 2012, but for a few decades. Each December the Earth and sun align with the approximate center of the Milky Way Galaxy but that is an annual event of no consequence.

So far that is all i have for this speech, even though it is due next for wednesdays class.

I nominate this thread for greatest herp derp in fcraft history.

And scrathy, that further advances the long running fact that Americans produce ugly cars.

Pretty sure we did get hit by a planet in 2003. We all died, remember?

Smokeybacon wrote:And scrathy, that further advances the long running fact that Americans produce ugly cars.

I happen to find it quite stylish. If someone offered you a car like that, no strings attached, you'd accept it.

Ollieboy wrote:Pretty sure we did get hit by a planet in 2003. We all died, remember?

So does this mean you guys are my virgins I was promised? Damn you ObamaOsama...